[Mathew Vandart]

Awesome thanks loads for that information I really appreciate it, I understand fully you all work, and appreciate the thorough answers.
I am just getting apprehensive I may be doing something that will make Bob worse and with these behaviourists saying that putting him down may be an option will most likely be the behaviourists that asses him if a complaint is made. I really want to make progress as fast as possible.
We live in a small town here when people find out there is a dog that could literally kill their dogs and has already pretty much tried to kill mine, complaints will go in, I can promise you that.
I don’t know about America but basically here if a dog ‘intimidates’ a person that is grounds for a complaint under the dangerous dogs act.
That includes obviously him lunging at a dog with a person, definitely trying to kill one and even if a dog runs up to someone that does not know it and they are intimidated.
Dogs are getting killed over here pretty much just for looking mean (i.e Pit bulls)

do’s and don’ts:
I mean are there any specific things that I do that might make him think it’s fight time………. with me.
I do have no fear but I am edgy with Bob.
I have spoken at length today with a dude that has kept English bulls for 40 odd years and has a rescue centre purely for them.
He said to me, ‘If this dog is going to bite you he would have done so by now’
Is this reliable?
Bob has been here for nearly 2 weeks.

How much time should I be spending?
I was more meaning ‘Am I spending too much time with this dog?’
I spend a massive proportion of the day with him which is how he has come forward in his obedience amazingly.
Today he was getting up to something naughty, I said no to him and he sat straight down and all his attention was on me, which was great to see.
I am worried I am spending TOO much time with him because I feel sorry for him being locked in his Run.
I’m worried I may be exacerbating his anxiety problem.
I do know English Bulls and if they don’t get human company they quickly degenerate into self licking machines.
I am gonna make him one of those springy tug things with garage springs and tugs, is this a good plan?

I will patiently await your answers dudes and duddettes as Mike has settled my mind a bit with the answers above and also the guy with the rescue centre did as well. I am taking Bob up to him on Monday so he can give me an opinion on whether Bob is nuts or not, I think I will listen carefully to his opinion due to his experience of normal and broken EBT’s.

Anyway thanks again.

Edit: read the link on break sticks, I will be getting/making one, thanks. Do many people get bitten whilst using one? Seems a bit short to me.

Second edit: I just read the link below and it says to twist the stick. does this take much twist? As in how hard is this usually to twist, could most people do it?

http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html

Obviously I am going to do my best to prevent this from ever being needed but Bob may be here for a long time by the looks of it and accidents do occur like if his muzzle came off during an altercation.

[Mathew Vandart]

C’mon guys I know everyone is busy but I really need some help here there is talk of this dog being put down.
One behaviourist was shouting at me down the phone:
‘Get that dog out of your house now! He’s gonna kill your dogs, he’s gonna kill a kid’
Loads of swearing and shouting at me, I think he thought I was the one that had brought this dog up.
I think he was full of shit, however there have been serious calm behaviourists saying that it may be something that could happen.
Its only a matter of time till someone gets wind of Bob and puts a complaint into the authorities, then I will be powerless to do anything about it.
BBC News – Pit bull-type dog Lennox put down, council confirms

This dog does not need to be put down I’m sure of it.

[Mathew Vandart]

Thanks for the advice Mike, again what is a breaking stick.

I already follow the rules in pack structure and establishing the relationship, this is something i do naturally with my dogs anyway.
The advice i require really is timetables of exposure for desensitisation more opinions in the way i interact with Bob and the way Bob interacts with dogs from the videos.
“Do’s and dont’s” with Bob.
I have been doing obedience from day one, i can get him to sit climb and stay with my Dobermans present and without. I have taught him NO, in fact he is becoming very obedient in and around the yard. I have had him in the kitchen teaching him house rules with and without a muzzle on.
How often should this dog be muzzled?
How much time should i be spending with this dog per day?
Thank you in advance

[Mathew Vandart]

I am not asking for that reason despite my other thread.
I have other dogs I have other dogs I train also, ones who’s heads are not screwed.
I have plenty of experience with training dogs including protection.
I am just intrigued and wanted to get a discussion going about it.
Yes the Bull terrier in my aggression thread sparked this thought in my mind as I was wondering exactly how bite inhibition works neurologically and cognitively.
For instance I have trained protection dogs that would happily bite the arm off an agitator (helper) if they were allowed to but were soft as squeezy cheese with dogs/puppies and friend humans or anyone else that I would not have been happy about them biting/intimidating.

Oh and by the way I can still do with some help with Bob the Bull terrier if someone can have a look in the thread I have posted loads more movies and info.

[Mathew Vandart]

Dunno if you are still looking at this thread but I agree with Mike on this one, don’t block the avoidance. I have a doberman that was exactly the same. I bet that rottie is very affectionate once she gets to know someone!
They are lucky as she has entered her secondary socialisation period and now is the time to strike when the iron is hot so to speak. I gave my doby loads of exposure to people and situations like crowds and stuff obviously from a distance first and she is completely over it now at 14 mnths.
I have often found that the ‘fearful’ dogs like this are always very curious as well, and usually have a good play characteristic in them.
that is my opinion, you can use this curiosity and play function to solve it.

[Mathew Vandart]

Video of bob cooling down after fear spaz out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GqEsNKExYg&feature=youtu.be

[Mathew Vandart]

sorry double post

[Mathew Vandart]

OK shit has just got worse.
I began introducing him to the house today so I got the other dogs in the living room which is2 rooms away divided by two doors.
He was on a lead and martingale collar.
I went round the kitchen showing him what he could and could not do for about half an hour which went well.
I stuffed part of a cow bone chew toy with chicken and kibble and brown bread and gave it to him while I was reading more on the internet to find out what I could do about Bob (on a bull terrier forum) sat at the table with bob on his lead.
the other dogs crates are in the kitchen also he went into one of these with his bone and immediately ears back tail very low almost between his legs and started whimpering, while he was doing this he was moving around frantically, he was in full throttle fear mode.
I encouraged him outside the kitchen but remained calm, he was still like buzzing around at the end of the lead, I manoeuvred him into his pen and removed the collar in there.
this was tricky as he was like I said in some kind of panic state, he has had this bone stuffed before but only in his pen, he carried it around alot and whined a bit but usually settles down to chew it.
I dared not remove it from his mouth I am pretty sure that would have sent him over the edge.
I videoed him as I let him cool down.
I will pegg the video up when it has uploaded.
Been around dogs for ever, never seen this behaviour before it was fairly scary and my heart rate definitely went up, but remained calm and did what I thought was best.
Can someone please give me some more help, I fear I am losing this battle very quickly and I don’t want to see him moved on again, it turns out the breeder failed to tell me she has only had this dog since he was 12nmths so who knows what went on before that. To be honest if she had told me this in the first place I would have strongly advised my missus not to even think about taking him on.
she does however supply me with information when I phone her and ask specific questions.

[Mathew Vandart]

Cool, thanks dude.
Look forward to more info, I am working in complete darkness here, I may be out of my depth 🙁
Could you explain ‘locking out into a prey state for me?

[Mathew Vandart]

Here are some more vids of Bob.
First is me interacting with him just on a quick walk about the garden, he had more lead walks then I left him sniff about.
What do you think of his body language and interaction?
What do you think of my interaction with Bob?
You can see that there is a male GSD in the neighbours garden. Interestingly this dog barked like crazy at the doberman I rehabed and trained here but pretty much doesn’t bark at BOB at all.
This seems to have been more so since the fight which he witnessed, I don’t know if this is relevant but also the dobermans have been less interactive when they walk past his pen since that time also and they didn’t even witness the fight. Basically there seems to have been a shift in attitude to BOB and maybe from Bob since it all went down. Like for instance he is not so waggy tailed anymore, to anyone. Sure he has his moments but mostly it is like in the beginning of the vid. Neutral to low tail which is still.
Anyway as they say, lets go to the video……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkIJ3UoDPE

This second vid is of all the dogs around bob in his pen.
I know I have set him up for failure a bit and looking back at the vid he is a bit stressed, but I wanted to gauge What the BOB/Bumpy interaction was likely to go like and see if he/she would react in anyway aggressively under pressure.
Once he had calmed down I went in his pen apologised for stressing him out and did some obedience, ‘party hat game’ and took him for a long sniff about in the whole garden not just the bits he had already been in, in preparation for his walk around town.
Any pointers on this vid?
Both critical and positive would be handy.
I knew that Bumpy was going to be problematic but she has bite inhibition so she really hasn’t been dealt with properly, you can hear me in the vid telling Kath that her dog needs the same discipline/restraint/calmness/balance whatever you want to call it as my dogs. I am afraid this is a statement I have repeated over and over again.
It just doesn’t get done, hopefully this has been a wake up call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdAx9MNjuxc

The last vid is of Bob with his muzzle on after he has been for his walk around town, I also ran with him to gauge his reaction/tire him out a bit as Reggie the Doberman I trained/gave life skills to, bit me on the arm when I went running with him on the beach.
Believe I am more scared of Bob biting me than that 40kilo doby, anyway my fears were unfounded he was just fine, I am pretty sure he has strong human bite inhibition or else I am sure he would have bitten me during the fight.
Take notice from 2:32 he puts his front paws on one of the Dobermans backs, this is what triggered Bumpies bite.
I will also finish the sentence when the film ends.
‘Kath don’t just stand there like a plum, get them in the kitchen so I can concentrate on calming him down’
I don’t think she is very good at reading escalation during play and this is how it all came to pass.
In relation to the fight with Bumpy,I am pretty sure I could have got in there and stopped it escalating if I had been there when it all kicked off.
In a way it is a blessing in disguise as if they had not had a fight then I would probably have chosen to just integrate him into the pack and he could have kicked off when no one was there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJnh4vJUc2w

Again thoughts and comments on all this info and vids would be greatly appreciated.

[Mathew Vandart]

Thanks very much for your answer Mike. I am afraid you have confirmed what I already suspected :(.
which is terrible when you consider he was a stud dog.

I have a few more questions if you don’t mind.

What is a breaking stick?

I keep him in a secure pen which is 16ft by 16ft has insulation in half of the cover an the other half is covered with transparent plastic. He has a nice kennel, a shallow water tray for him to lie in on hot days some chew toys and a comfy bed.
Is there anything else I need to provide for him, he is going to be in there for long periods at least until he properly accepts the muzzle.
He is at the stage where he has it on but is rubbing it on the floor and trying to paw it off.
He can see me training dogs and playing with my own dogs from his pen, he mostly ignores them or just watches from his pen but if they get into a minor squabble with growling and snapping (my dobermans are siblings) he gets into a ‘Bully whirl’ if you get me, spinning around and getting hyper.
Is it wise to let him see things like that? Or should I make another pen in a place that is less active?

I am having a very hard time of this as I hate to see him penned in, I just don’t normally keep dogs in pens for long periods (it was a pen for dog holidays) he is so nice with humans it’s heart braking.
His main motivation is petting which I think may have come from lack of it, have I got that right?
I think he might be getting a bit depressed.
I need to take him out in the real world for a walk or we are both gonna go nuts, there is only so much walking one can do in the yard.
He nearly broke my wrist on the way home from the breeders which was 250 miles away. We were stopped for a rest, he saw another dog and started jumping up in the air and then spinning. He only had a harness on as this was what he came with, and obviously while I was trying to control and calm him down he spun, there was no way I was letting go of an unknown Bull terrier that was acting up so my wrist rotated right round, luckily I am pretty bendy.
This was the first warning sign, although like I said, there was no aggression, growling barking or anything so I assumed he was just a hyper dog that had not had enough balanced discipline.
We were very wary when we decided to introduce him to our dogs and we took our time over it. He was not behaving in this way when he met them.

How do I tackle this situation?
He will have a harness and a collar on so I can really restrain him affectively.

Would my dobermans would be good playmates as they are pretty much perfectly obedient and trust me to make decisions 100%?
Although they do occasionally fight (not like him but snapping and growling with each other , you know like sibling dogs do) they will snap and growl at him and other dogs if they piss them off but nothing serious just normal warnings.

I think my wifes bull terrier had alot to do with the trigger. did you watch the video I posted? I could do with an expert interpretation of body language in that.

Another thing I noticed about his interactions with humans is when people are arguing (this situation is causing a bit of stress in the household) he gets all ears back about half way, tail goes down but not between his legs and he backs away just a few steps into the pen.
When you pet him on the top of the head (stroking not like patting)he also goes ears flatish and lowers his head.
What do these signs mean?
He has just come from a house where his owners split up which I assume went with alot of arguing, do you think he got kicked or abused as a result of these arguments? just speculating here.

Here is a vid of him interacting with people, this was his default until he got into the fight. He still behaves like this but not all the time, sometimes he will come over to you but is not waggy tail until you say something to him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k63s52dIwgY

When I broke them up, or realistically when he let her go, he got squirted with the neighbours hose, was this wise (so did I) lolz, I didn’t ask the neighbour to do it he just took it upon himself, he was just trying to help.
I obviously reprimanded him, not harshly physically but verbally ( I was pretty amped at the time) harsh verbally for me basically means I swore at him alot but not yelling but obviously pissed off.
I did this while I held him by standing over his back holding his collar and pointing him away from the other bull terrier till he calmed down and Kath took her away.
It took maybe 10-20 secs for him to calm down.
Was this the right thing to do?

I have alot of experience with TRAINING dogs but not alot rehab skills and experience of this intensity. The only other case of aggression close to this I have dealt with personally was a doberman male that gave plenty of signs before he lost it so it was easy to get in there before he kicked off.
I used obedience treat rewards and controlled play sessions with my dobermans to get him right. He has so far not got into another fight since he went to his new home.

We can’t afford a rehab expert and to be honest after watching your vids and reading this site I don’t trust them anyway, they don’t know this system and would probably be all treats and harsh corrections anyway, so we will have to do this all ourselves. I want to get his nuts chopped off, especially now after there is more than one person thinking it is genetic, but my missus doesn’t.
You see after we were told a pack of bullshit by the breeder Kath had specifically got this dog to stud out (bumpy the dog is neutered) as there are many EBT breeding kennels in the area we live, none of them have reds so he would make her a mint.
Would cutting his balls off affect the outcome of dog/dog interactions at all or is this just a myth?
I’m sorry about all the questions its just I really need to formulate a plan as I have a business to run and the sooner I get my plan together the sooner I can start in earnest and the sooner I can get back to actually carrying out business. I know this sounds harsh, I also know this is not some bullshit dog whisperer overnight fix, but I have kids and more dogs to feed, I have taken nearly a week off to keep an eye and to start his obedience skills learning.
I just need a plan so that I can see progress towards a goal.
Any help at all towards this plan will be greatly appreciated.

[Mathew Vandart]

That guy is an ass.

[Mathew Vandart]

Ok, thanks, the problem is that his aggression only comes out when he is one on one with another dog, he does not do this when there are many dogs, he is a s good as gold.
He does not Growl, he does not snap, ever, so the early warning for me is not there, vocally.
This I believe stems from his life as a stud dog, I have received information also that may be pertinent to the problem.
As I suspected he has had a good kicking off one of the breeders other dogs, a bitch and this was when the problem started.
I suspect this is the real reason he left.
She has also told me this ONLY happens when another dog snaps at him.
Am I on the correct track thinking he is getting in there and taking out the threat before it gets him and that is why he goes straight for hold and dissect?
Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

[Mathew Vandart]

Hi, thanks for your quick reply! I knew the K9-1 forum would be my best bet for assistance!

@jocomoreno 1094 wrote:

Hmm a little more information might be helpful. Lets follow the triangle and see…
Knowledge: Has the dog bitten any other dogs? Was it just that one time? Are there any other situations when this happens? Do you ever see any body language when hes with the other dogs that might indicate fearful/defensive behaviors or otherwise? More details might help piece together a scenario and a trigger.

I was told that he was great with other dogs, after the event the breeder we got him from (He has always been a stud dog) came a bit cleaner that it had happened before. I had suspicions as he has some scars on the top of his head that were well healed and probably a year old. In my eyes he shows no fearful/defensive behaviour whilst playing possibly a bit of dominant body laguage. He has only been here for four days so alot of this I cannot answer yet. I have got him wearing his ‘party hat’ 😮 using the method in Mikes video (a variation of which I would have used anyway) so I can probably get some more video later today. However I will probably leave his dog interaction until I get more suggestions from this thread.
I got out of the breeder that she wouldn’t let him on his own with another dog but he had successfully played with many dogs a number of times. This dog has won a bull terrier dog show??? So he cant be extremely dog aggressive

Health: Any health issues we should know about? Ear infections, tooth infections, etc?

He has no health issues whatsoever he is in peak condition

Attitude: Are respect, patience, calm confidence and poise being displayed during training, handling, etc

I am always calm when training. Although I have only recently found this foundation system, I have been training dogs for a very long time using similar methods. That is not to say I havn’t learned anything from K9-1 videos and from reading the foundation method on this site, I have learned alot. If you would be so kind as to have a look at some of my other videos you can get an idea of how I train if it would be handy for this problem. Maybe there is something I do wrong, although my dobermans are almost perfect, lolz

Golden rules: Timing, motivation, consistency. Have you watched him as he plays with other dogs. Timing is especially important here. If you can catch him in the act you might be able to intervene immediately. With the proper motivation and consistency you might be able to correct this behavior. Assuming hes giving you a sign before he bites.

I Watched him carefully throughout the first session he met the other dogs which was about 2hrs long he showed no signs of aggression at all, he was mostly submissive-neutral and very polite. During the second session he was a bit more confident in himself but was still playing well. I (maybe wrongly) assumed he was doing fine and as it was time for the dobermans training I then called them and took them off for a training session. This is when it all kicked off about 3 mins later as I was walking through our gate off to the training feild.

Pack structure: I noticed this bite took place in your home and after you had left. Are pack structure rules being followed in the house by all members of the household? Toys, beds, food, affection, going out? Are the members of the household in control of all those things and are they initiating walks and play sessions? If he is being assertive when initiating a play session with another dog it could be directly related to pack structure.

This is possibly the issue here. I have 28 years of training dogs under my belt, I started when I was 10 learning from my father, who used more traditional methods if you get me. I developed my current style myself over the years. So I just naturally follow pack structure rules and keep them in check. Dogs just generally understand that I am the boss ( a big claim I know).
My wife has grown up round dogs and has been involved in the training of all our dogs, but can be a bit sloppy in her routine. Having said that she will initiate play, walks, food etc. She is not as knowledgeable in terms of theory or experience as me so may have missed the cues that he was gonna kick off, well she did basically because it happened. I think her bull terrier may have been a very important player in this whole scenario looking at the vid.

Restless spirit: Are dog group sessions his only workout for the day? What his exercise routine like?

Ok, here is the score, he has been here for three days so this cannot be answered properly here. However in these three days he has had alot of attention. Not as in Pats and such like, but walks on the lead around the garden off lead play sessions, one to one obedience with myself/no dogs one to one with my wife and older boy (The dog is doing very well with this). He definitely made alot of decisions with his previous owner especially during walks. He is very difficult to get motivated to play, I don’t believe he knows how to do it or what fun it can be. He was a breeder stud in a 6ftx 3ft run so I assume he didn’t get massive amounts of play.
I must say at this point, his owner was NOT a horrible back yard breeder you hear stories about. She genuinely loved this dog, she cried terribly when we collected him and has been in available and willing contact since he left. Although I suspect her motives for rehoming him were issues such as we see here, she also moved him on as she had a relationship break down with her partner and saw that she could not have the time for him so was looking for a better home for him that could.

Anxiety: Any anxiety issues. Chewing, destructiveness, peeing/pooping? The idea here is to remove as many stressors in the dogs life as possible.

Only a bit of whining that can be expected when a dog has such a massive life change, he whines more when I go past his pen with the other dogs (which is very big, has plenty of shade and sun and a draft proof kennel. He has water down constantly but is not left with food down only a bone when he will be left for a long time.

Housebreaking: Accidents in the house?

No issues as of yet, he has been a kennel dog and will continue to be a kennel dog until he is reliably mended, he has had forays into the house on a lead but had no major issues other than a bit of excitement.
He did however get out of his pen on the first night (he can unlock gates and open doors with lever handles) the dobermans chased him out into the garden (this was at 2 in the morning) and he had done a bit of mayhem in the kitchen, as in getting stuff off the counter. He was very spooked by the dobermans and left the building, I found him on the steps outside my kitchen door with that ‘guilty look’ on his face (I am aware that it is not a look of guilt, but it is a well known dog facial expression so the best describer I can make)
He has had no more issues with house problems but he also has not been in the house on his own since.

Obedience: Obedience could help alot in this situation. If you see him getting into a situation you dont like you could recall him, let him reset and then let him back into the group. How far along in the obedience are you?

His obedience is minimal, he could do a slow sit and paw when we got him, I have got him sitting first ask appx. 80% of the time, he does come now but gets a bit of environmental deafness now and again, mostly he is coming when called. His currency is definitely and fairly obviously affection, I don’t think he had massive amounts in his previous life.

As you can see a little more details might help us put together a picture of whats triggering him. Troubleshooting everything in the triangle along with a better picture will help us better see whats happening here.

Here is the video of him interacting on the first session:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JhLotZ40bA

The dog barking is the neighbours male GSD from over the fence.

vids of training can be seen here: Grokefish – YouTube

There is a video in there of me rehabing a Doberman male called Reggie which will give you an idea of obedience training I do and a chance to get some suggestions on my general training method.
Reggie had no obedience and was very very boisterous and bitey.
His bites were more predictable though, he would posture first, he was lead aggressive/reactive.

Hope this helps and thanks again.