Kim James
Forum Replies Created
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Hi Matt,
My name is Kim and I’m also a student of FSDT, Great to read your efforts toward building foundations with the dog and the clients!
“Is this a situation of the dogs potential is maxed out and management protocols is the only thing left to do or can more be done?”
IMO potentially Yes, expectation management on the owners and trainers behalf is obviously a key ingredient here.
My question is: Is the owner willing to walk around without a leash?
As trainers and owners sure we want to find an ideal situation better than the last, however sometimes you may end up doing a lot of circle work.
Actually I hear “toy drive ” mentioned a lot these days sometimes it can be quite convoluted what constitutes the “drive” aspect, from what Ive seen it is not the tangible device that is the key motivator, it is the engagement with the human, potentially the engagement with the other dog is more reinforcing and therefore more motivational than with the handler (insert game) if given the opportunity.
(And I think you know why given the information presented)
Can the owner vary the game or engagement to create more reinforcement and motivation?
Has the owner thought about a “relax” signal?
Is the owner able to effectively utilise punishment?
I would inform the owner in this manner:
“Honestly at this stage you really NEED to have reinforcement or punishment in the bank comparable with the motivation you’re competing against, primarily those moments you will see truly how effective the training and relationship is. Firstly its a chance to reinforce the behaviour you desire, and engage with your dog, secondly knowing that the dog is more interested in engaging with you through the toy than engaging with another dog should be high on your satisfaction list. Being in a situation without reinforcement or the ability to implement punishment during challenging times for the dog is not ideal for the dog, handler or trainer.”
I love to echo Mikes words here “punishment is used to guide the dog towards reinforcement” and its 100% true, he also says “you don’t want to pick a fight with Mother Nature”
IMO avoiding said situation is truely the best solution from an overall command/leadership perspective.
Im interested on how you go! keep us updated!
Cheers
Kim
With your dog, live, love, learn.
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Yes Sharon, generally the pairing of the primary reinforcer with the verbal signal/physical signal (often labeled secondary) will enable a nice foundation for your reinforcement schedules to develop and to allow you to enter the contingencies of the reinforcement realm,
Sorry this may be long winded I just hope to get the teach points across 🙂
Pairing a marker word or sound (praise) with a primary reinforcer (usually food) is just that, the marker is a neutral stimulus that intentionally will take on the form of a secondary reinforcer when paired well with a primary reinforcer(food), the stimulus being the word or sound + primary reinforcer (food) = conditioned stimulus which is viewed as a conditioned reinforcer from a classical conditioning perspective, this is due to the history of association the marker has with the primary reinforcer(food),
now think of when you add affection (another reinforcer) to the mix, it has the ability to be used and viewed as a conditioned reinforcer when teaching behaviours
when you begin to pair a behaviour with a verbal (word sit) or physical command (upward hand movement) you use a marker to communicate to the dog its on the right track towards the behaviour your reinforcing, if your shaping, chaining, luring, capturing, targeting whatever method,
The use of the lure in phase 1 is quite handy in that, you are luring the dog mechanically into position, during the luring stages once the mechanics are sound and the dog is able to reasonably predict the efforts you will begin to say the command prior to using the lure,
so technically it will look like this: command, lure, mark, reward(food)
again the neutral stimulus is the command + pairing it with lure/marker(secondary) and the food (primary) over time = conditioned response(behaviour),
the dynamic of the phase is you want to eventually work away from the any obvious physical luring, once the command (verbal signal) is clearly independent from the physical cue it will look like this:
command, less lure, mark, reward(food)
once faded from there you’ll likely move from the continues reinforcement via food and primary means to intermittent (variable) reinforcement the way you do that is via utilising the other various types of secondary enforcers you have available and 1 of them is affection,
*depending on the dog these can actually be even more desirable than food because technically it has the ability to evoke a biological response,
so it may look like this:
command, mark, reward (affection 40/food 60)
eventually you can thin out the food to whatever ratio you find works best for the behaviour
the application of these stages of training are a dynamic area for sure and the trainer needs to be succinct in their planning, additionally timing is critical,
Overall Sharon yes I believe you are correct both operant and classical conditioning are occurring as a result of pairing the pat(stimulus) with food(primary reinforcer) during that stage of training, in other words pat first then food = pat is a good time!
Kim 🙂
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I use clove, anise, birch, for scent work games only need a few drops on a cotton ball or cue tip leave it in a half full ziplock bag of either cotton balls or cue tips to soak and it works pretty well
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Awesome looking dog! what are your thoughts?
I’m going with a bully type breed, looks like a blue nose pitty. very bold, high prey, strong, loyal and gamey
Yeah Mason thats fair enough I mean what they’ve done is a very admiral thing and they are definitely giving the dog another great opportunity in life for sure,.
I feel Its cool if people want to do it their own way, just be there for support as you are when times get tricky, it might make sense to them once they see what their dealing with, give them time to let the waters settle.
I think that most people know how to establish a relationship with a dog and without actually knowing they conduct a lot of leadership exercises through the process. I personally wouldn’t implement to much in the way of true leadership exercise (you and the dog)as you may inadvertently end up slotting into the “leadership” role the dog needs and when your away the dog may feel its right to jump in that spot and then walk all over your parents.
You can definitely remind them of the specifics and when you see a perfect opportunity, get them to do it.
keep us in the loop with how it all goes…Happy training!!
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Hey Mason,
Mike potentially will cover this type of behaviour and strategies in the live classroom series, which will enable a way forward for your parents and paint a clearer more precise picture.
To gather a little more information for myself, can I ask you to link a photo or video to gather at least a visual representation for the breed type.
By abandoned to you mean he was a stray dog living on the streets for an unknowable amount of time?
Does he have any understanding of particular commands?
Thanks.
Overall we need to take look at the dog first to understand what his genetic tendencies might be, and how this has helped shaped his behaviour whilst being abandoned.
Then we’d need to ensure the dog is of a good health, both physically (pain, aliments) and mentally (stress, anxiety), a recent study suggests that gut health is applicable to aggressive/irritable type tendencies (not solely responsible), however ensuring the dog is on a balanced species appropriate diet is crucial from a physiological foundational standpoint.
This behaviour type would be considered predatory in nature, the earliest thing you can do is implement strategies that include management, leadership structure applicable to that dog, and then slowly begin some training and obedience, you will then be able to work on developing some impulse control.
This situation is hard for the cats, the owners and even more for the dog who is trying to find his place in the new environment (which is your parents habitat) not knowing any of the rules he needs to follow.
The owners job is to introduce and teach the rules that are applicable for them, and implement management techniques that manipulate the environment to ensure the dog doesn’t get a chance to make a mistake. Management will only work for so long though so you need to graduate slowly to formalised training.
Consider the age and neuter status will also help understand the dog is a sub adult intact male, and is definitely finding his place on earth the only way he knows how. If that means chasing cats to satisfy a biological need then thats what it is.
Some initial strategies and thoughts would include:
Record/log the dogs day for a week (feeding, playing, incidents, triggers, rest)and look for behavioural patterns around specific times.
Management is a crucial piece early, keep the cats safe and keep the dog safe. a Dog in pure prey drive will go to great lengths to catch its prey, that can mean complete disregard for injury ie… running out into a busy road, jumping off a height, crawling into small spaces.
Find and provide some biological fulfilment in the form of a replacement behaviour/play for the dog to express itself.
be patient
Hopefully some other trainers on the site will jump in to offer some further help and guidance for you, keep us posted on how your tracking.
Cheers
Kim
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Hi Jessica 🙂
It sounds like your providing the dog with a reasonable physical outlet in the form of walking which is awesome!!! you could absolutely vary the physical outlet to engage her drive tendencies in the form of hunt and retrieve games which could offer another level of engagement and relationship and allow for early implementation of premack principle.But for now….heres the kicker 🙂
From a health perspective she is at the moment discovering that her primary incisors are being replaced by permanent incisors. Obviously during the teething process dogs can get irritable and potentially to us irrational, they may drool and seek comfort by chewing (destroying) things with their mouth.
“University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, says the incisors start to come in at around 2-5 months of age, then the canine teeth at 4-6 months, the premolars at 4-7 months and finally the molars (which only come in as part of the permanent set) at 5-7 months. By the time a dog is 7 or 8 months old, he should have all of his permanent teeth.”
Unsupervised free time for an teething dog in an area of importance such as the sitting room is ill advised, this would certainly be inviting temptation from any irritable dog with minimum impulse control or boundary’s.
Genetically Vislas have a very strong social pack drive, all these associated drives can absolutely be exacerbated via heath related issues and irritabilities.
I would say that you do your part to lessen the tempting chewing opportunities at home.
Keep your floor clear and make sure that items of importance are set aside in the bedroom or closet.
Move things set in your pup’s eye level to higher ground.
As much as practicable, provide them with an area that is safe enough for them be alone and engage in with a chew toy when you need to leave the house for a long period of time.Awesome job on starting the PH1 obedience with her, try and be cognisant that as they grow into their skin there will be times your standing there scratching your head thinking what the hell did I just see!!!! moments of brilliance and moments of loopyness LOL 🙂 Enjoy the process, be patient and Kind.
All the very best 🙂
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Hi Brad
May I ask are you fluent with the foundation style language and the most recent update?This information would be essential with regards to the implementation of a goal orientated schedule and routine which the puppy requires, personally I would let the puppy enjoy the growth and focus on social settings and socialisation as a matter for the pup to learn simply how to exist in the world with it’s new family. Being careful to not lead the puppy into temptation to do the wrong thing, which can be tricky sometimes especially with children.
To answer your question point blank
It’s as easy to mess up a puppy as it is to promote a steady learning curve.
If you have an achievable goal and everyone in the household is on board, the puppy will florish. Be patient, detail your plan to the other members of the family, delegate tasks to instill ownership and responsibilities.
May I ask what type of Dog have you taken on?
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Take a look at “What It’s Like to Be a Dog: And Other Adventures in Animal Neuroscience”
https://play.google.com/store/audiobooks/details?id=AQAAAICudWP13MPretty interesting
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Wow Mack thats off the charts!!!
Really interesting for those keen to understand scent theory.Im aware of the sweat glands around the groin/armpits called appocrine and apoecrine.
On the hands and feet are called eecrine.Each human has their own specific signature odour which dogs and many other mammals can detect.
The Appocrine gland influences and aids pheromone production which is very interesting!
From wiki:
“For most mammals, however, apocrine sweat glands secrete an oily (and eventually smelly) compound that acts as a pheromone,territorial marker, and warning signal.Being sensitive to adrenaline, apocrine sweat glands are involved in emotional sweating in humans (induced by anxiety, stress, fear, sexual stimulation, and pain).Ive likened your analogy to a “calm confidence” which is a desirable trait for any dog handlers/trainers. But when i think of it holistically it must encompass knowledge,health and attitude!
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Are you talking about a peice of steak or a rotting carcass?
Sorry i may have missed the mark here but I remember reading in konrad mosts book about “chicken pain” and how the trainer influenced the dogs assosiation of the smell of the dead chicken and paired it with an aversive stimulus. Maybe thats occured in the dogs life?
Or perhaps the behaviour was born out of a single event learning situation.(saw animal die or killed) Who knows really?
Youd need to go down the CC/DS path if you desire that end state. Id say it was pretty normal for a dog to be wary or even fearful of anything dead that it happens to come across, its an obvious indication that danger exists close by. -
Hi Dave, I feel You need to teach him how to love and trust humans.
Then work together.
Give him time to adjust and just hang out.
Show him what your expectations are for just existing in and around your space.
Is there a specific time frame you need to achieve with this Dog?
As you describe
From the way he acts around mine he is used to getting most of his needs met from other dogs
Are you refering to a drive balance concern?