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    Yes he is, although it’s not made a difference in his case. He does not show pain well as it is so it is hard to gauge. He’s on metacam and tramadol because of his skeletal issues.

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 10, 2019 at 11:19 pm in reply to: The Case of Navy's Misdirects
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    Thank you for your reply and compassion Michael, it was a very tough day. Sybl was kind enough to spend time on the phone with me to talk through the scenario. In the end, I could not go through with it and both are still alive. I’ve put down plenty of dogs for medical issues, but never behavioral and so this is a tough one. I’m not one to easily give up, and both dogs in their own right are lovely … just not together. The idea had always been that our old crew would pass away and make way for Cobbler, his sister and mother, who are the youngest of our pack. But then Navy arrived on the scene, and before I could adopt him out I came to realize that he was not safe to adopt out and so there we are.

    Another factor of course was cost – I have no idea how we’re even going to pay the bills, the surgeries were massively expensive and Navy had complications with severe esophagitis and spent a day in the hospital because he regurgitated everything that went in, water, food. He is doing finally better today, feeding him small meals every couple of hours in bailey position for 30 min. It’s been a very long 4 days, and my BF has succumbed to a 103.5 fever upon his return Saturday. I literally picked him up  at the airport with a sedated Navy in the back of my SUV tied to a stretcher. Welcome home, I messed up. Sometimes you wonder how you hold it all together.

    I will watch the stream you suggested. I have some idea for management improvement that I am implementing now such as the muzzles on while I’m moving them around as Daria suggested, and I’m doing the 3-pack with Cobbler first so that they are all tucked away when I deal with the other 5. Less chance for a mistake. Additionally we are going to build a shed in our second dog yard that will function as a second home for us to sleep with the 3 pack so that they possibly will never have to be in the same area. Next week I am leaving with the 3 pack and my oldest dog to Utah again (Cobbler is fine with him as long as he’s muzzled), so Navy is safe at least until I get back and then hopefully we’ll have the big shed.

    It is really very tough, and I beat myself up over the mistake. But then I thought since October 2018, 4 times a day, every day I move these dogs around and have not been a mistake. That’s a lot of days I did well. The problem is these mistakes are so damaging for Navy and costly. Cobbler of course barely has a scratch (some bad bruising and one puncture wound), while Navy needed extensive surgery.

    We will keep pondering as the days progress, it is all too much to take in now with lack of sleep. I appreciate everyone’s help tremendously. At least I feel I have some support, and I’m learning so much from the class. I see things now in behavior I never saw noticed before, fascinating. I noticed something during the fight too.

    The one thing that saved me this time was that I had prepped in my mind what to do if it happened. First I dragged another dog off the fight, then called Navy’s walker (and vet tech) for help since they are 5 min away. Then I hooked the leash on Cobbler’s collar and dragged the two of them to the table. All the while I kept thinking ignore the sounds, don’t look, tie the leash. Then I grabbed Navy’s collar. I had learned some time ago not to use the release type collars because they release in the fight and you have nothing. So they have regular collars. I waited for Cobbler to release and then dragged Navy off. Cobbler tried to latch on to his butt but I dragged Navy quickly to another room. Navy wanted to go back. He really does fight until he can fight no more. Anyway, just in case an owner deals with this later. It helped me to have repeated a plan in my head and to stay very focused and tune out what was happening. I don’t even think I screamed very much this time, an instinct that is very hard to suppress. One day I’ll watch the video but not any time soon. I’m rambling. Sorry. It was overwhelming.

    Thanks again for the support. I’ll try to update when I can. Obviously training Navy is on hold
    until he’s stronger.

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 7, 2019 at 2:25 pm in reply to: The Case of Navy's Misdirects
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    I have been trying to keep them separate for 3 years. I have 8 dogs. But I cannot be 100% on all the time. Navy is fine with the other dogs, supervised only because he misdirects when he hears sounds and one of ours dogs doesn’t take kindly to his misdirections and does fight with him. So Navy lives with 4 other dogs, and Cobbler lives with him mom and sister.  Even if I muzzled both dogs when I am moving them around (they each get alternate time in the backyard every four hours, there is no guarantee that will prevent a fight. One also have to wonder what kind of life that is for a dog that all his free time is in a muzzle.

    But yes I guess I could muzzle them during the change, then take the muzzle off only when they are in the room that leads to the doggie door.

    In two fights Cobbler had a muzzle on but Navy ripped it off. Cobbler is an exceedingly skilled fighter and Navy is no match although he fights until he collapses. A fight last October lasted 45 minutes in an open field, had nothing to tie them too. Every time I got Cobbler loose Navy latched on.

    Navy has very bad knees, hips, valgus deformity, his body is giving out and he has extensive behavioral issues as well. We are literally in a position where we cannot go anywhere because they are too dangerous to have a pet sitter handle (2 initial fights with Cobbler  – 1 with another dog besides Navy) happened with a pet sitter who disobeyed our instructions. In one fight the pet sitter bravely tried to separate 4 dogs going at it, yelling, screaming and kicking and got badly bit in the process. So that was the end of us every going on vacation. It has been going like that for 4 years and I don’t know how much more I can take without some kind of help. I’m at my witt’s end, and I have horrible dreams of the dogs attacking each other. I live in constant fear in my own home. When it happens when I’m alone like this morning, I cannot break them apart. I succeeded only by attaching a leash, dragging the two of them close enough to a heavy table to secure the leash too.

    I worry that even if I muzzled both they’d still be able to latch on and remove the muzzles. Does anyone have input on that?

    I just feel so guilty all the time because the last 2 times which happened over a span of 3 years have been my fault. I try to manage them as best I can but even I make mistakes, and I’m very regimented. Navy had surgery yesterday, he would not come out of anesthesia so I spent the night every two hours waking up taking his temp and listening to his lungs , taking hr/resp rate to make sure he was OK so I was exhausted and that’s when it happens. With my BF gone I have been exhausted managing the pack by myself.

    I have to decide by 1 pm to do the surgery. Yesterday was 1800 (for a mass on his head, probably scar tissue from another fight), today is 2000.

    gutwrenching decisions. Any help appreciated.

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 7, 2019 at 1:37 pm in reply to: The Case of Navy's Misdirects
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    So today Navy and Cobbler got in their third fight. Navy had just had surgery yesterday. I don’t know what to do anymore. These fights are very bad. Surgery cost for Navy is 2000 on top of the 1800 we spent yesterday. I am close to euthanizing both of them. I am at my witts end. Any input appreciated. Previous post on Cobbler explains his aggression. My BF is on a flight and I have to make this decision alone for Navy.

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 6, 2019 at 3:14 am in reply to: The Case of Navy's Misdirects
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    Hi Dave, a good observation, and I knew someone would comment on it. The background is that Navy had been received two very harsh corrections by a substandard trainer, which caused him to be so stressed he ended up at the vet with hemorrhagic diarrhea. In that video he is actually totally zoned out on trazodone and composurePro – yet he still manages to wake up from a deep slumber. The reason my BF petted him instead of correcting him was because at that point in time we were just trying to get his stress down. Normally he is not rewarded for that behavior. I appreciate the feedback though!!

    It is tough with him, it seems no matter how well exercised he is, he will wake up from a complete deep sleep to protect his territory. He’s got extreme sound sensitivity also.

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 2, 2019 at 1:46 pm in reply to: The Case of Navy's Misdirects
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    So Navy spent the night in his kennel by the bed – no more furniture for him. We have so far controlled everything but that, so it’s the last piece. I also took him for his training walk before breakfast. That did not make a huge difference – he is not hugely food motivated, but he did very well and started the heeling/treat factory behind leg sooner than yesterday. We also got farther down that street. At some point a car door slammed and I noticed he took a very fearful position.

    So I watched the Ethology Breeds lesson and had a few comments/questions. 1. Yes please do a full lesson on the Bully breeds!! 2. Are there particular types of testing you do for a dog to see their defensive behavior and predatory sequence?  Any videos of that?

    3. I have  8 dogs currently, all mutts and have DNA tested them all but Navy (that is coming this week). Of the 8, 3 are family, a mother and 2 half siblings. I have 5 siblings and adopted 3 out. Genetics were so interesting on those dogs the wisdom panel geneticist called me. It’s been interesting seeing the pups mature and their traits develop. That could be a whole post. It’s not often a mutt family like this is put under the loop and tracked throughout their lives.

    4. On Navy, I find it interesting that he is very strong on the defensive side, to be expected, but it occurred to me that he has a lot of herding behavior. He tracks some, but not overwhelming I think but he is very strong on eye/stalk/grab/shake. He will sit in the yard and just stare at stuff. He is visually very strong, he noticed colors like bright flowers, he noticed cows vs horses in the field, differences in landscape when we drive. He’s also on the softer side I’d say. He is also quite fearful of sounds and environments he does not know. Any input on that? It just seems he is a bit of everything…

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 1, 2019 at 9:37 pm in reply to: The Case of Navy's Misdirects
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    Thank you so very much Mike that is valuable information, and the compliment on our home (there were actually two homes, Utah and California but you undoubted referred to our Cali home, since I have not a stick of furniture in Utah, getting ready to sell that place).

    I was wondering about the dominance aggression, so we have to be careful with that. We have our work cut out for us. I will go through all the links you provided. I am also going through your 4.0 sessions and that’s quite a lot. We are hoping to get with Sybl in the next two weeks. Right now my BF is out of the country. When he comes back we have a week overlap and then I leave for Utah again, Navy will stay in California with Navy and hopefully continue work with Sybl. Hopefully I will be back for the holidays.

    Navy is muzzle trained, that is one of the first things I did, so that is good at least.

    My BF I think has now elevated himself from his subordinate position since he has been training him the last 6 weeks and handfeeding him his kibble. He used to be afraid of him but is not at all anymore now, for better or worse.

    My first job has been to get Navy stable since last week’s debacle training session. He is his normal self now. He is also on Trazodone since a few days ago. I heard you mention you hadn’t used any of the medications – the reason I wanted to try it is because I want to get him used to more environments and since he appears so stressed by that, I wanted to put him in a better position to deal with it. That has actually worked, he is still stressed but it definitely takes the edge off. I am walking him daily (well walking is too big a word since I’m doing the you pull I go back method or I make him sit).

    So I’ll describe what I saw this morning with that. When we first walk he is very stimulated and so it’s a struggle to get his attention. I go back and forth a lot, and make him sit and just take in his environment.

    I wanted to ask about that. This is something we do with horses to get them to relax in a new environment since they are flight animals. Is this OK to do with a dog or am I just letting him do what he wants? I wait for his body to relax and then we move on.

    I noticed the first portion of the walk is tough. Granted we were by a farm with chicken and goats. He did well considering, no lunging, no barking. Just some mild pulling ahead and staring, and no treat taking. But, victory, in the end, after going up and down this little stretch many times, in the end he was in semi heel position eagerly looking at me for treats and so we ended on this good note.

    My strategy (for the outside stuff) is to continue to do more of this down the street and hopefully eventually into main street. I work in sits, stays and downs, focus, and some heeling.

    I will read the materials and I’m sure will have many more questions. Thanks so much for taking the time to help.

     

     

  • Maria Livingston

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    August 27, 2019 at 4:56 pm in reply to: The right trainer
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    So the owner of Cali K9 (who has not seen Navy since the evaluation) apparently wants to talk to us. If anyone is still reading this topic, I am wondering if there’s specific questions I might ask him, or things I might question when he undoubtedly defends their training strategy. If you have any thoughts, let me know.

    • Maria Livingston

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      September 11, 2022 at 11:47 pm in reply to: The right trainer
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      Not to revive an old topic but imagine my surprise when I saw this trainer on Netflix on a show called “Canine Intervention”. Well, he is the owner and was not the trainer who harmed my dog, but he fully supported the trainer. So upsetting to see him on TV, knowing he has continued to harm other dogs.

  • Maria Livingston

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    October 3, 2017 at 4:56 pm in reply to: Play aggression?
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    Thank you all so very very much for your feedback. I have started phase 1 obedience and add journals and videos as time allows. I have read all that is available on the site and youtube (which is a lot!!!). I have ordered a muzzle and will be training him on that. I have another dog who is dog aggressive who is muzzled often so I have experience with that.

    Absolutely Navy does not see humans as leaders. Navy is 5 years old; I’ve had him for a year. I do naturally assert leadership with my dogs but most of my dogs are good pets and have not required the strict hand in leadership that Navy requires; and also with Navy I am undoing 4 years of non leadership. Navy came to me because he bit a kennel worker (bruised calf) in a shelter and was going to be euthanized; a positive based trainer assured me he did not have aggression issues but was just kennel crazy (he had been there 4-5 months) and begged for him to be saved. The idea was to adopt him out as I need another dog like a hole in the head. However, it quickly became clear that Navy would not be easily adoptable because he had separation anxiety, severe allergies, bad hip dysplasia and valgus deformities. The first year I spent just getting him to get used to being confined in a room, being able to leave for extended periods of time, getting him to be more relaxed in a home setting, and sorting out his various medical issues.

    Navy is extremely demanding in his interactions; he literally “forces” himself on you to kiss your face (and this is a shower). I am now working with him to only do this when I allow it, and for him to be more gentle. He also has a tendency to bark at me when I do something he doesn’t like, like leaving his area. I am now taking the time to make him sit whenever he does this. I would be interested in feedback on whether that is the right action. When he barks at me like that, and I approach him to make him sit, he continues to bark and starts running around. I continue to block him and ask him to sit. We will go often through two rooms during this routine. I will make him sit for some time and then free him, and then leave again. Often he then barks at me again, and I do the same. I find that the third time when I leave he does not bark at me. Is this progress and should I continue doing what I’m doing, or is there another solution I should implement?

    With regard to meeting people, he is a bit unpredictable. He does well with women although he is too wild (jumping at them trying to kiss them). He is also fine with most men off property, but not with all. Because our town has strict “fierce” and “aggressive” dog ordinances I have stopped taking him into town for his own safety. In addition I live in the town where Best Friends Animal Society is located and you can only imagine the stares when you use a muzzle or starmark/prong collars. That I can ignore, mostly, but I do feel I need to build on his controllability before endeavoring town visits.

    The incident with my worker was that once when I was away longer than expected I asked my worker to let Navy out for lunch. He reported he could not enter the room because Navy attacked his boot vehemently. The incident occured when I invited my worker into my living room (which is where Navy lives). Navy had met this worker before in other areas of the property offleash, and although he wildly jumped at him, he quickly diverted his attention elsewhere. When my worker came in the house, Navy wildly jumped at him as he did before. My worker raised his arms in front of his chest and stood quietly. I attempted to grab Navy’s collar, and just at I did, Navy was up in a jump and bit my worker on the lower arm below his elbow. He did not break the skin but it was a large, painful bruise.

    When I was working Navy outside Friday with the two workers onsite he reacted very strongly to the worker he had bitten, but not to his brother. His brother is not on my property that often, Navy has never met him. But it was very interesting to see the difference. Both men love dogs and have a nice, calm demeanor. My guestimate is that Navy has often seen the one worker with the framing gun in front of the windows making noise and that he associates him with the noise. But that is just a thought.

    Navy does bark wildly at any man who comes around the property – it’s all been men so don’t have a reference point with women. But I think he is clearly territorial.

    My one concern is with my BF, who will be here again next week; in addition, I am due to go back to our house in California for the winter where I have to reintegrate 8 dogs which will need to be in 3 packs due to dog aggression. In addition, my BF is now not comfortable with Navy. So I think you can see the pressure I feel in that respect. My BF has a much softer hand with the dogs so I will not only have to train Navy to see me as a leader, but also to train my BF to act has a leader. Luckily I do have a foundation style trainer in my area who is willing to help. So I have two months to do as much work as I can.

    I have found that Navy will submit fairly easily although I find that in offleash situations around the house it takes me raising my voice which I hate to do. But it appears when I do that, he responds instantly. Mostly he appears to think it’s a game until I raise my voice. I must admit I find him very hard to read. I have worked with many breeds of dogs but never a purebred pitbull (at least I think he is) and maybe it’s just Navy in particular but often I have no a clue what he’s thinking.

    One question I have is more input on testing a dog out of phase 1 – how do you know a dog has a solid phase 1 base. Can you start phase 2 on phase 1 commands that are solid, or do you first complete all of phase 1 commands before moving onto phase 2.

    I hope this is helpful info, just tried to give at much as I have observed. Any and all thoughts greatly appreciated.

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 30, 2017 at 10:40 pm in reply to: Play aggression?
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    Thanks Kim that is interesting. I have been trying to work with him. I have construction workers at the house on a regular basis and Navy goes wild at the sounds. I tried to work him some in the yard and he really wanted to go after the one worker who is there all the time, just pulling and barking very loudly; I think he associates him with the sound of the framing gun. Seeing that in full force again yesterday has me overwhelmed as to whether I can handle any kind of retraining. He bonked me in the face while in that state yesterday; he is absolutely uncontrollable no matter what I do in that state.

  • Maria Livingston

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    September 26, 2017 at 8:22 pm in reply to: Head off Potential problems
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    I’m not a trainer by any means but I’ve worked with a lot of rescue dogs and raised a couple of pups. I think your instinct is right on – I wouldn’t necessarily work with that person, but I’d say socialize, socialize, socialize. Anyone he has that response with, give them treats and have them work him some. Some dogs are naturally more suspicious and fearful, and it’s important you catch it early and work on their confidence. i didn’t and yeah, there were consequences. Just my 2cts.

  • Maria Livingston

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    May 14, 2016 at 10:30 pm in reply to: The Case of Cobbler Rumpel
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    Hi Michael and Caroline, thank you for your replies, I very much appreciate it. I have over the years rescued & adopted out 40 or so shelter dogs, mostly GSDs, malanois, the odd dalmation, husky, cocker spaniel, mini poodles and 7 akitas. I don’t do it anymore for health reasons; this little socal family was a one off and I didn’t intend to keep any of them. Of course the beau fell in love with Cobbler, and he is really a very affectionate dog at home. Tina stayed because of two cruciate surgeries and the biting .. Sophie is great and I need to place her, although it’s hard because Cobbler enjoys playing with her. The three (momma & siblings) are a very cute family.

    Short-term management is in place as you suggested (has been for some time). The three don’t need to be separated in my mind as there’s never been a fight. They play together happily. Cyrus has not been with them unsupervised since the first fight.

    FYI in the wisdom panel DNA the genetic group for pitbulls etc is the guarding group. Cyrus is very high in the category also and judging by his ears had been in dog fights before I got him (he was 5 then, almost 11 now).

    Cobbler will not be without a leash and muzzle around people or to introduce him to people. But I do want to be able to walk him around town so he can continue to learn. I got him a Do Not Pet vest so that should help keep people away. It seems that isolating him, which is the typical response when these things happen, seems like the worse thing to do because he’ll be even less socialized.

    A practical question. So for phase 1, do I start with sit, go all the way up to phase 2 and then go to down, all the way to phase 2 etc etc?

    How many sessions a day and how long do you think?

    I used to exercise horses and I do well knowing what the schedule should be so I can stick with it. I do heavily use premack always (although I had no idea what it was called 🙂 )

    Thank you so much for your help. I truly appreciate it.

     

  • Maria Livingston

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    August 26, 2019 at 5:48 pm in reply to: The right trainer
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    Thank you so much Mike for your feedback, and I will contact your reference. I noticed too about the “natural ability”. The trainer we have it not even on their site. I looked high and low for any signs with these guys but could not discern anything negative from the feedback from others (5 stars on yelp too). At least it seemed better than the guy who claims to train dogs in one session and doesn’t take dogs who are not neutered ….

    Lesson learned once again. I also wonder why would you do this as a trainer when the wife appears for the first time? Somehow it seemed some kind of weird macho move? My BF said that had never happened before.

    Well, off we go cutting our losses. Poor Navy has lost 11 lbs during this training and he is massively unwell today.

  • Maria Livingston

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    August 26, 2019 at 5:43 pm in reply to: The right trainer
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    Thank you for confirming my suspicions. Yes they had it on 46 so this was the stim at 6 plus the red at 40. I believe that’s a shock not a stim. They indeed did not do a training plan. I just started Mike’s full training session package and immediately realized from the first session that we never got a training plan. It’s a standard training for everyone. And although yes, everyone needs obedience I think a few things should have been tailored for him. Thank you, I appreciate the feedback.