Michael D'Abruzzo
Forum Replies Created
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Tail chasing, if you rule out a health issue, I’d say, for sure has a genetic component. You will see it in bull terriers and German Shepherds in particular. Dobermans are also notorious for flank-sucking.
I did a quick google search and found this study, that you might find interesting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3406045/
I have dealt with a few tail chasers, and the first thing I always asked myself was: Is it overall causing a problem? Injury? etc..
Or is it causing a problem only in certain situations?
It is much easier to address the behavior if it is a problem in certain predictable situations vs if trying to “fix” an overall genetic tendency, since it will be near impossible to be consistent with addressing it unless there was a serious management and training plan that micromanaged every moment. Even then, I still don’t know for how long it could be “permanently suppressed”. Sort of like a dog that spins or barks when generally excited.
I would make a “habitation chart” and keep track of exactly the times of the day and the activity that triggers it. Also, add any play activities on the chart to see if it is more or less likely to occur after a lot of play activity vs no activity vs just enough where she may want more after it ends. This can give insight to any potential drive balance issues.
German Shepherds have obsessive personalities for sure, it may help to try to create another competing obsession, such as a particular toy or perhaps a high-value treat that the dog may get or expect after doing alternative behaviors in those situations instead.
So, you are standing online at the store. Have the dog “sit” “heel” or “down”. Dog can get the normal correction for breaking, but also add something high value in that particular situation for complying, so it becomes more about the alternative behavior and creating the new habit, instead of just what not to do, which doesn’t work as well.
Or, after the dog poops, immediately call the dog to you and give a treat or even a lot of affection.
As Allie, stated.. “leave it” command will be much better to stop the behavior if the process has already started, but try to find those alternative behaviors that will work best before it happens in the first place.
Steven Lindsay would refer to this as the “dead dog rule”. Things that we can teach a dead dog to do (which is to do nothing), do not work as well as teaching the dog what to do instead.
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I think this is a great example of how to desensitize and/or condition the dog to gunfire in the area.
It is one of those things that dog handlers should address BEFORE they may be in a situation with live gunfire in an uncontrolled environment.
For instance, I use to use the whip a lot in protection training to make a loud snapping noise to test and bring out the aggression in dogs early in training. This has a tendency to inadvertently generalize dogs to act aggressively to gunfire too when introduced. NOT usually a good thing, especially if the handler may be firing the gun and/or you need the dog composed and in control around gunfire.
I think it is great that you are being proactive about this.
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Great story and video! It gives me many ideas for a special service that can be offered to clients. I love that you video for the clients.
I also LOVE your setup where you can bathe the dog right on the grooming table! I have never seen that before, so convenient.
I 100 percent agree about what a problem it is with fearful dogs not getting served how they deserve. It is a MAJOR problem in that industry that has affected me, my friends, and my family directly. SO many stories… in cluding past students of mine that went to work for high volume grooming shops and then come back to visit to “mentor” other students in my classroom and I was like “what the hell happened to this student?” when I would see the attitude and behavior change for the worse when working with the dogs.
Such an important topic!
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HI Kim!
Does he have a collar on? And if he does, does he have any issues with you putting a regular collar on and off?
My first thoughts are that he may have had a bad experience with leash training before you got him and probably needs counter-conditioning along with desensitizing or flooding if necessary since it is obviously an irrational fear.
He can probably get over it quick once it is attached and associated with treat-based training.
Thoughts?
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Thanks for the article.
Even with my best-trained and “friendly” dogs, in areas where it was OK to have the dog off-leash (technically, there are not many public places to do so), I have always recalled and placed the dog on a leash if I was going to be passing near anyone that I did not know, and especially children. And did not remove the dog from the leash until I was at a distance that I thought would be reasonably safe from THEIR perspective.
I think many things in life boil down to common courtesy and respecting that people have their own fears that should be respected, and larger or intimidating-looking dogs, especially, are a common fear for many.
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I agree with Allie that you must be careful putting moisturizers on the paws. If I were to, I would use something like bag balm that is made especially for chapped udders on cows and such..
Looking at this dog’s toenails, you can see how much wear and tear it is exposed to on the paws. You can see the nails worn down to the quick (the dot in the center of the nail). So if the nails are that worn…
Considering cold pavement is already one of the most damaging surfaces to the paws, even if there are no chemicals or salt on the surface, the dog may simply have too much activity on that specific payment to keep up with the healing.
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Wow amazing how much dog training can intertwine with grooming. It is true, that if a groomer is going to be able to service as many dogs as possible that they need to “train” the difficult dogs how to be safe on the table for themselves and for the groomer. Especially while using sharp objects near their eyes, mouth, etc.. and there are multiple ways for every situation.
The same sort of discussions about LIMA and when appropriate to use what techniques and when, and what would be abusive behavior vs thoughtful “training” could be said about grooming.
When I worked as a vet tech, I inadvertently learned to use negative reinforcement to encourage dogs to remain “calmer” when on the table and they needed to have procedures done.
For instance, if a dog struggled, I would tighten my restraint but immediately loosen up my grip and talk sweetly and stroke them when they stopped struggling. It was always well timed and got them to calm down quicker vs just “always restraining tight” or “always loose grip and trying to talk sweet while they were struggling”.
Not the best example here, but I have the students relax a bit and talk very nicely to the struggling (and confused) dog once they are in position:
Now, on a less thoughtful spectrum, I have witnessed techs and even veterinarians outright shout at struggling dogs, wack them on the snout, and worse. Something that no reasonable person would think is appropriate and I am sure no owner would have agreed to.
This is another reason why I love how @marinadarling is video-recording the sessions and explaining to the owners. It really is considerate toward the owner and shows a lot of accountability and transparency, which is great for all involved business, dog, and owner for any plan for any individual case.
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Here is another great video related to the topic. I am very happy to see these higher-quality discussions happening in social media:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cybCUTBppUE
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This is a good subject for the Q&A.
I can probably pull some areas in the older coursework where I mention it, but I can see how it can be overlooked because I usually have the discussions after the dog formally learns all phase 3.
There is some mention at the 47:00 mark in this 4.0 video: https://dogtraining.world/knowledge-base/phase-3-mechanics/
There is also discussion in the forums if you search “escalating correction” specifically in the site search bar and click “forum replies” in the options.
Just to be clear, what I am explaining is not some sort of “set in stone” technique for the coursework, but I am sharing what I found to be most LIMA for practical situations.
Here is an example of a full unedited group class from back in the paladin days. The class consisted of clients that either learned completely from group class, transfer from other trainers, some that did in-kennel and learned to only handle, etc…
In those classes I made it a rule that any dog on leash needed to be corrected first on the leash before they could escalate to the collar, because in those situations, with dogs that were in phase 3 and not obviously having some impulse issue the VAST VAST amount of “disobedience” you see is honest mistakes and the collar pumps help just as much with positioning as it is a correction.
Basically, Steven Lindsay says that LIMA is a measure of competence for cynopraxis trainers, and there is no formula. With this subject which is past the teaching phases, relies on the trainer to make judgments on a case-by-case situation.
There are also practical reasons. The use of an escalating correction gives the clients the confidence to take their hand off the collar when their dog is onleash around distractions.
In my own practical experience with my own dogs, It is very very rare I needed to correct Orfeo out in public with an collar as long as he is on leash (has ecollar on too) because he knows it escalates. That includes bringing him to the vet, visits to my highschool classroom, etc..
It also doesn’t necessarily mean that the dogs need to get punished at any level more either, if the dog doesn’t have good reason to disobey and is still getting reinforced. But all of these things are factors depending on dog, handler, situation, what has become habit to the dog, etc..
Here is a typical class I am talking about. FYI, there is one client in the video that I needed to boot out for breaking that rule. She brought her dog to “sit means sit” first, and would constantly blast her dog in class when the dog, who was about easy as they come to train, was definitely just confused.
group class here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W01LImsFz54
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I teach when on leash, always use leash pumps before ecollar, if both are on.
BUT, if the dog doesn’t respond to 2-3 pumps (whatever takes about 1 second) escalate quickly to ecollar.
Ecollar is always on the lowest level that the dog definitely would prefer to avoid for the given situation.
I found by doing this, even a relatively mild phase 2 collar like a starmark becomes more motivational through classical conditioning and greatly reduces the need to use the ecollar around high distractions when on leash.
In general it is a great way to get clients to not rely as much on the ecollar and free up a hand.
New situations, when dog having impulse control issues, etc.. It usually becomes obvious when it is better to skip the leash pumps.
Very similar rules to the charted command structure, except the leash pumps basically follow similar rules as the “no”.
With trained dogs that are honestly trying, I found it just about eliminated ecollar use on leash in vast majority of situations (WHEN a phase 2 collar AND ecollar is on). If you watch any of my group classes I have uploaded, clients rarely touching the ecollar when dogs are on leash following those rules.
I believe a disciplined handler who is very aware of when a dog is disobeying vs honest mistakes and is super good command structure (including “no”) and understands avoidance training can skip the leash pumps on leash and only use ecollar and probably technically use ecollar just as little, but for the clients who are usually far from perfect I found the rules above work well, and dogs get saved a lot of stim when just a pump will work.
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Those were my thoughts. “Learned Helplessness” has always been presented as something that the dog “learned” after being unable to figure out an escape.
This article presents it as a natural/default response which makes sense, and the animal must “learn” how to escape the aversion (or default to learned helplessness).
So, as trainers, if we do not create an environment/lesson where the dog can “learn” to escape an aversion, its default behavior will eventually kick in, and it will stop trying.
It doesn’t change anything regarding how we physically teach a dog, but it makes me think of learned helplessness differently and how it should coincide with the science and importance of escape conditioning.
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