Arthur Lopatin
Forum Replies Created
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off the top of my head, flow of consciousness style, and (hint, hint) w/o seeing vids: (1) have u done enuf Phase 1 stuff off-leash (starting with an easy for owners and dog to do command, maybe Climb), so he knows his people are fun/rewarding/non threatening Leaders? (2) Is his ‘Good Boy.’ solidly conditioned, a la Pavlov; i.e. , does his mouth water whenever his people (appropriately, of course) say those words? Where are you practicing? W/this guy, the fewer the distractions, to start with, the better. That way he succeeds more and success will start to build on success. (4) i’m not sure what you mean by ‘fun phase 1 stuff?’ sounds like Leash Manners. I hope it’s in a very low distraction environment and that the owners have mastered the pattern. Sounds simple but it’s not. It might pay to play dog with the owners, do stuff a dog might do and show how they should respond, then reverse roles. I’d also give them a how-to/cheat sheet if they are reasonably literate. There’s also at least one FSDT Leash Manners vid w/Judy & Orfeo. There might be more. There are some subtleties w/Leash Manners walking and the more consistently its practiced and good behavior is reward, the better. (5) This might be a good time to teach ‘Fido. Look at Me.’ and seeing if you/tehy can use it in low-distraction environments as soon as he starts getting distracted. But, like everything else, ya gotta teach it first and be really sure the dog gets it. Then, when doing Leash Manners (in a very lo-distraction environment) try using it. (5) U said the owners are working on Leadership. I hope so, because getting it right — i.e. being boss w/o being bossy/ overbearing/ cruel / impatient. using psychology instead — is very important. assuming there are no lower-level issues (triangle wise) leadership and relationship are very important and most people don’t fully know how to do it. leadership (including owning scarce resources) is like fertiliser. the more your dog is ok w/you being leader the easier training becomes. (6) how is the owners timing, body language, etc:
This is a lot, I suppose, but if you chunk it up just right it’s manageable. my instinct, w/o seeing dog is to practice off leash stuff or just use leash for physical control/prompting but not to get dog to to anything. get him to do stuff using pure ph. 1. imo, slow and steady often wins the race. remember, leash manners walking is this dog’s first xperience of FSDT Positive Punishment (finger pumps) and even if he hadn’t had bad leash experience from the previous trainer, he doesn’t really understand that, for leash manners, the way to escape the pumps is for him to make the leash to go loose. done right, in the right (lo-distraction) environment, imo, succeeding at that, a little bit at a time, can be a big confidence builder.
Good Luck. Bottom Line: Chunk it up, in a systematic way. Set everyone up for success. Don’t try too much too soon but get some momentum and keep it up.
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I posted this — mostly — because it’s something that a lot of dog owners — especially inexperienced ones — don’t fully understand. People (myself included) like to believe they’ve got a deep, magical, mystical bond with their dog and it’s so strong nothing could possibly go wrong if they unclip the leash. Even with a well-trained dog/owner team that’s not so. As a matter of professional and personal ethics, it pays to make sure people understand what’s involved: psychological and physical trauma to people and dogs, potentially euthanasia of dog. I also tell people that even if your dog is perfect off-leach, you unless you are in the middle of nowhere, you can’t be sure what’s coming just around the corner. Could be an aggressive off-leash dog. What will you do then???
On the other hand — different kettle of fish — where I live, I see people who don’t ever — because they don’t know how to — let their dog off-leash in woodsy places with few people and where most of the handlers are acquainted with each other. I feel sorry for the dogs and the people in these situations too.
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Whether your are already FSDT-certified, are on the certification path, or are a dog-owner serious enough to have joined DT.world, the more vid’s like Mike’s and Ivan’s, as well as books/articles, etc. that you study, the better will you be able to stay calm, cool, collected when you discuss this very important issue. I give the ‘e-collar rap’ whenever I can, wherever I can, be it chance encounters w/dog owners on the trail or talking to my (very few) clients/potential clients.
FWIW here’s my spiel:
I’m an FSDT guy. Here’s why: The Pyramid. The 3 Phases. How each phase works and why you should always go 1-2-3. ONLY THEN do I explain how/why Phase 3 usually uses e-collars. Bottom line, which I try to repeat a few times: Introduced properly and used correctly, e-stim is no more aversive than finger pumps. In fact, your dog will regard it as a long-distance finger pump. (I don’t spend much time explaining e-collar use re: housebreaking.)
It’s not a magic bullet that, presto-change-o, solves every issue. But if you know what you are doing and want to go off-leas where it’s legal and appropriate, FSDT Phase 3 e-collar training is the way to go. If you don’t believe me — especially if a demo-dog isn’t available — here are some vids. It slso helps to strap an e-collar on your neck and ‘shock’ yourself. 🙂
But some people are completely incorrigible. Words like ‘punishment’ and ‘e-collar’ trigger them so greatly that they just cannot think clearly. Beyond a certain point, it’s a waste of time trying to have a conversation with such people, because they’re ovewhelmed by cognitive dissonance and can’t think clearly. Sometimes ya gotta know when to hold ’em and when to fold ’em. Me, unless I manage to politely walk away from such people, I get seriously angry. Not practical, for lots of reasons.
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Bottom Line, IMO: FSDT rocks. If I were u, I’d focus like a laser on working through the course and getting certified. It’ll take time to master / internalize the ideas and then put them into practice. But when you, do, regardless of whether your goal is to be a full- or part-time pro trainer or a serious dog owner, you will be very, very well-prepared. The difference between the two is this: Pro’s must be pros at motivating and teaching both people AND dogs. Teaching people is skill in itself, one requiring patience; the ability to break things down into small, manageable chunks, so clients come away feeling they’ve succeeded more than failed; the ability to criticize constructively, not trash. It also helps to be a good amateur psychologist, so you can quickly read the client and your reactions to the client. The more insight you have and the more flexible you are, the more clients clients you will have and keep, and the more they will recomment your services. A big mistake I made was to assume that new clients are as deeply interested in dogs as you are. Most aren’t. Some become enthusiasts. Others, not so much. Some you can turn into enthusiasts, others not so much.
Nota bene: I’m, at best, a semipro. Pretty good dog trainer. People, less so. Lotsa reasons. I hope you know that to succeed as a pro, you need to be good at the dog AND the people side. You also have to know how to build and manage a business.
Once More: If I were you I would focus laser-like on completely mastering FSDT asap. There’s a huge wealth of knowledge there. You will emerge as a serious pro, well-prepared to work with clients and with dogs to the max possible extent. All the best!
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At the start of my K-9 journey, I went thru the ABC program and was certified. Since I had 0 dog/dog-training knowledge and experience and my wife and I had recently ‘adopted’ a big Malamute-GSD mix from the local shelter, even after working with a very well reputed Barbara Woodehouse style dog trainer, I needed to know more, and I was thinking of becoming a pro-dog trainer. The ABC program was a great start. Pretty good, well-organized curriculum, which I supplemented by reading a lot. And the apprenticeship with some pretty good local trainers was very useful . (I spent extra time there, after I had gotten certified to try to learn more. Among other things, they asked me to train a dog the owners had given up because another trainer told them she was ‘aggressive’ (b.s.), ‘unmanageable (b.s.). I ended up adopting Carrie. No problems. I also — here’s the part of my story that might be relevant to your situation — helped out a lot on weekends w/’aggressive’ training sessions. I handled a lot of dogs for walk-bys while my mentors worked with clients and their ‘aggressive’ ones. Afterwards, we discussed what had happened. During one of those sessions, one of my mentors told me she was not entirely happy with their way of dealing with ‘aggression,’ because it didn’t always work. (BTW, these women were good trainers operating a successful business. Good people.)
Later, after working with Mike D. I realized why — bottom line — they didn’t fully understand what punishment is and how/when to use it. Of course they were APDT certified. Since I still had problems with my Malamute-Shep mix, I was personally looking for a better way. Fortunately, like you, I stumbled on FSDT. Even though I was still learning, it helped a lot with Samson.
How is this all relevant to your question? Since you are at the beginning of your FSDT voyage and dog training is the way (a way?) to support yourself, why make potential problems for yourself by cancelling your APDT membership? Why not wait for it to expire and then not renew? I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by contacting them and telling them that you disagree w/their style and want your name off their list.? Why pick a fight unnecessarily?, Why create bad blood unnecessarily? Why waste your time debating the meaning of LIMA, what operant conditioning meands, etc with people who are heavily invested, psychologically and financially in what they are doing?
For sure, as a matter of personal and professional ethics, explain — as simply and clearly as possible — what FSDT is about, especially to new clients, and without trashing purely positive or yank and crank. IMO, it’s best to simply explain your style (FSDT) w/o criticizing other other ones, especially to new clients coming to you with no baggage from previous trainers, people who just want to solve some problems and have a good life with their dog. If they do come with baggage, then you might have to explain — as positively as possible — why/how what you are going to do is gonna work for them..
And when if/you do what I suggested, have all the info down cold so what you say comes off like water flowing down aa duck’s back,
Bottom line: I would not terminate if I could just wait for my APDT membership to expire, just get on the FSDT path and incorporate what you are learning into what you are doing.
I hope this helps.
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Enjoy! I honestly believe that the more you get info like this ‘under your skin,’ the better you become as a trainer/owner. The mechanics of obedience training are essential, but so is becoming a dog yourself.
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timing, timing, timing. easy concept re P+ during escape training. but hard to implement out there in the trenches. (btw, ditto re: stronger-than-needed P+). Talking the talk and walking the walk ain’t the same thing. U can have the knowledge in your head but the more you do it easier it becomes to do it, and even then, you sometimes screw up. 🙂
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Deer freezes in headlights, sick prey animal singled out by wolf, person about to be decapitated, people on subway car near thug/lunatic, ……. so many examples of this. More broady, re: dogs, I watch so many of them being walked, often on a harness, by owners who ‘love’ them, never/hardly ever are rough on them, but don’t know how to relate to the dog and have fun satisfying his real needs. I’m not sure this meets the criteria for ‘learned helplessnesss’ described in this article, but IMO, it is a kind of learned helplessness. Dog thinks, ‘OK this is my life. There’s not much point pulling on the leash or getting too rowdy when I’m out w/the boss, but this really isn’t very much fun. Not what I really wanna do.’ After a while, they forget what it is they really wanna do, and the owners think they’ve got a happy dog that they have ‘trained.’ I used to tell my wife that most dogs live lives of silent desperation. I think Thoreau said that about people, but it’s true of dogs too. Ironically dogs w/serious, often dangerous issues and dedicated owners often are the ones that get to lead better lives.
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I looked at the title, scanned quickly, and ‘poisoned command’ popped right in my mind. It’s so easy, when training, to deliver untimely, stronger than necessary P+ (but lets not forget that being untimely also can ‘poison’ R+)
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U are very welcome. IMO, technical knowledge and mastery of training skills, especially a la FSDT, are required to be a good dog trainer. But to be excellent, deep, knowledge-based, realistic empathy are needed to be an excellent one. No accident that Ethology’s at the bottom of the pyramid. IMO, the deeper your knowledge and understanding, the more it’s in your bones, the better you are as a trainer. I think this is something that makes FSDT pretty special. It’s one of the reasons I post a lot of ethology-related stuff. “<b style=”background-color: var(–bb-content-background-color); font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; color: var(–bb-body-text-color);”>In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely try to train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog.” — Edward Hoagland
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“The obedience training has boosted his confidence and he is viewing the command as the safe space. I am usually super careful and wary of mixing dogs and kids…but this felt right and his body language was so sweet.” Thx 2 u Jacob’s got a good life ahead of him, now that he’s learned how to negotiate the world. I just read the wikipedia article [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dane] and a few others. Evidently they were used as hunting dog, specifically, chase dogs, and guard dogs. I wonder if some of the predatory fierceness hasn’t been bred out of them. Jacob’s a sweetie pie. Far as I can see, the only danger he poses is knocking down a kid or an adult who’s unsteady on his legs when he, affectionately, jumps of on them, and maybe if/when he counter surfs.
I’m glad Nicole’s gonna walk him. BTW, did ya check out Great Dane Health issues and figure out how best to avert/alleviate them? Only real question I have about that beautiful session is: was his tail a little more tentative than usual???
Great stuff!
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I imagine that when you started working w/Jacob he got all or most of his daily food ration during training sessions. More or less. At what point, if any, did you stop that? Assuming you did stop that, do you use higher value treats than his normal food? Or do you still tell his owner not to feed him before your training session with him? Especially when you start training and are building a relationship, in my xperience, stuff like this can be important, assuming the dog is at least normally food-motivated.
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Related point, back in the Area 51 days, the way you taught ph 2 Heel (as in those old vids) you used leg language (L step, R step, fast step, slow step) as a replacement for ‘No.’ As you explained it, the leg language focused the dog’s attention on that Heel rectangle. I don’t think one way is right and the other is wrong. One way might work better with one dog, leg language with another, or one might work better in one situation and leg language another. For example, when Mom’s walking the dog in heel next to her, w/the baby carriage in front while talking to a companion, leg language can be very important. Bottom line, imo, reading the dog and being consistent in your training mechanics is key. Lots ways to skin a cat, as they say. IMO, dog training’s an art and a craft and a science.
