Dave Page
Forum Replies Created
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I got some spray sheild in my cart. Looked like it was gonna go wrong, which was why I yelled to get their dog, he broke when I yelled, and started advancing on him, so spray shield would have come in handy if he hand’t yielded.
Trying to find a 8 foot fiberglass core flag whip as a distraction to add to order. Thought it might make a good distraction for interlopers.
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I got an airhorn coming to see if it helps. First run of the season was too wild for my comfort. Really hate to use pepper spray with owners so close as last ended being.
Raw unedited.
Has shown where need to do more work. Mostly training myself. Mine seem to loose patience after a few close calls. We had more close calls than normal.
Many moved during the summer took couple dog packs with them.
I got complacent, and wasn’t as prepared as should have been. Ended up being unprofessional.
Some dogs have been added on the normal route I didn’t know about who don’t know what’s up. Mine did very well the first, and second close call.
I never spoke to my dogs during it.
Out of habit all the “no’s” were being directed at the one charging us trying to break its focus. Mine knew what to do and held their ground to let me deal once I jumped off to confront the dog. (He charged out from behind a vacant house hyper focused on my dogs and silent. I don’t think it ever saw me until I threw my phone at it and physically got in the way.) Third not on video was way too close for comfort. It Dodged the leashes I use to whip out to keep dogs back, even trying to bolo its legs, and it kept coming.
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Post is mainly, organizing in my mind, new knowledge with my experiences, and As stated I’m open to critique/correction and discussion.
Using pack drive to shape certain behaviors is as LIMA as on can get.
Take Ace’s carrying things for me. Common method to train some retrievers is to start with forced holds.
It was so much easier to get his interest in it through playful interaction because of the pack bond.
As for the release commands: If we know there is a potential we may eventually do protection training with a dog why use “free,” or “ok” command?
If aggression is a continuum with fear drive on one end and offensive on the opposite end somewhere in the middle would be prey drive/ tug play. If we knew we might want to do protection work later using the same command (many use pasoff) for both tug play, and later protection work should also help the dog generalize through the aggressive drive.
If the command is conditioned properly during tug play, especially if starting at a young age, the conditioned response should send them into the aggressive drive once the command is given.
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Around 3 weeks and made awesome progress considering any dog I had would have killed calf in short order.
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Couple screen shots.
The one with loading comments is from not logged in.
The other is with me logged in as can be seen from the chat button in bottom left.
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Thanks.
Takes me a while to figure out how to explain it without going psychology nerd 😆
I think that’s one of the reasons my dogs seem happy to do obedience is I try to keep it interesting and fun. Early on If they seem to be stressing I’d back up, try and different route, or add a substitute stress to alleviate the primary stressor.
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Wish I was decent at creating charts.
I look at the aggressive drives as being on a continuum. Easy to move back and forth.
As humans we are conditioned with what I call anchors; similar to a conditioned response but more emotional based. From human psych we know frustration is result of a myriad of emotions, eg., anger, resentment, due to lack of fulfillment of basal needs.
Tug flitting on ground -> Prey drive (frustration built by holding them back increases emotional response.) Emotional response adds strength to the command, as well as the praise, and once the 2 are conditioned it has “anchored.” In other words the command itself can bring about the emotional state, and response just from being uttered.
If a dog has had such a command anchored, and it is placed in a unfamiliar situation in which it’s unsure how to react, said command properly anchored will kick in prey drive.
Let’s say it is a situation where the dog needs to protect its owner. If the dog is confused the anchored command can be given which, in simple terms brings to bear the requisite drive and emotions. It’s only a matter of milliseconds from prey drive to defensive drive. The video of the black wolf going after the dog: the dog goes from prey drive as the wolf walks away and slides into fear drive, back to prey, and back to fear in moments.
Milton Erickson type stuff.
To clarify mine have never gone beyond what is necessary. They have never chased down a stray. They just run them off.
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Thank you for replying Allie. I lean better with discussion and challenging questions. Yes I have watched those.
I guess I should break it down. So many macro and micros. 😀
If you noticed in the video of Luke above when I tried to let him win by letting go he quit. All mine are that way. If I quit playing to let them win they quit.
I’ll be thinking this through and see if I can write something up.
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I see a lot of ethology in their actions and play. Mine stopping when they “win” I have wondered if is the win, the fact that pack leader quit, or as wanting to interact with the pack leader, because they are ready to go again as soon as I pick it up. Much like humans dogs build bonds and sense of belonging from interaction/doing things together.
With territorial aggression most dogs will stop at their boundary which is set by scat. (Most will urinate within their territory but will go to the extremes of the property to defecate if left to their own choice) Although urine marking is territorial, some studies on scat marking, and personal observance have noted dogs tend to be more aggressive when others enter their scat territory. Almost as though urine marking is saying I’m here but scat marking is the “No Trespassing” sign.
Take my neighbors dogs. They come onto the south side of my property to defecate. When me or my dogs get in that range those dogs will cross my fence but usually come no further than their scat piles (They did it yesterday). There is another more in-depth study I read, but I guess I didn’t bookmark it https://www.publish.csiro.au/wr/wr12176
Based on ethology most dogs protecting its territory, with self-preservation instinct intact isn’t going to run far outside that circle alone. and maul another to death unless they had some trauma during the formative stages. I emphasize “alone.” We’ve had a couple people killed here, others hurt, past few years by dog packs that got in a frenzy; however those dogs were allowed to run loose, had marked those territories where attacks took place, and in at least one case the man was trying to protect his dog. For myself Crowd psychology is relatable to dog pack mentality.
Regarding protection training and commands. as always it is what works for the each dog and person. I realize I have a small sample size.
My free command means we are done training, and they can go do what they want, sniff, explore etc.
My version of passoff means they can engage prey, threat etc. For instance with the hogs I could put Lexi in with them and she would work or bay, but if she got the passoff command she would look for an opening to grab.
Mine aren’t aggressive because they were trained to be. Their natural aggression is in check because of their training. (I was very careful with Ace not to instill more aggression. He almost bit someone at 4 months for getting too close to the truck, almost got my wife when he was 6 months the first time she got in my service truck. His conditioned punisher is all that stopped him.)
Based on assumption puppy play is preparation for adult life I incorporated what I would want later: Tug flitting around on the ground kicks in prey drive, Pup learns through obedience if it wants to play/get prey it has to wait for the passoff type command to come up from the sit, down, etc before it can engage (can be seen in the video with Luke when he broke a sit, I said “no,” he sat back down and waited.)
The first time I dropped a varmint in front of them they didn’t fully let loose until they got the command. Now any type of projectile slinger comes out they don’t have to be told.
With the cows, they now know they belong, but Chet still doesn’t like them getting to close to me.
4 of mine I have now were trained in such a way. So far no confusion regarding play and aggression, which is possibly due to training the command as more a release, or free than anything else.
From Lexi’s vid where I was pretending to hurt my wife it can be seen she isn’t overly aggressive even though she was trained as the others were.
Ace: As Mike said once, “Ace is going to be Ace.” He would be way more aggressive without obedience training.
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No sir.
I think it’s backwards now.
Drop down menu still available if not logged in and can get to every thing that way.
If you’re logged in and click on the dog logo you see the sign up offer.
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Lots better on that part.
I thought Q&A and Forums were supposed to be private, accessible to members only though?
I was looking, and realized I wasn’t logged in when it said needed to log in to comment.
All previous Q&A, and forum discussions, etc are all currently publicly viewable/available just can’t interact.
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Doing it on everything I have. iPhone, MacBook and desktop dinosaur.
As soon as get to the bottom of “all updates” section it loads and jumps up. It doesn’t really affect usability on Mac or desktop but with mobile layout can’t get down to dog news, knowledge base or members.
I know we can go drop down route for all except dog news, replies, recent comments though.
